The Movie Database Support

Ever since the creation of the TV db there has really a distinct lack of guidance for it's content along with some missing implementations. One area where it has gotten especially noticeable for me is "Anime" - aka the cartoons from Japan. With one of the mods recently quitting that wanted to help in that area I think it is about time to tackle the issues. Now don't get me wrong, I do not want any "special" treatment for this type of content per se but guidelines addressing the issues that come up when entering it here. Currently it's just random depending on who is entering stuff (which is at a low standard for anime anyways) and I mostly limit myself to just clean up a little once it affects me (via trakt).

See some discussion points below. I didn't feel like writing it all out again so I linked some threads there. I'm sure there are things I forgot about just now.

Shows vs Productions Anime is usually aired in cours, which is a three-month long television season. Sequels and the like always get a new title for a cour and can have completely different staff and studios behind them (along with production committees, etc.). For those reasons you find the entries in anime specific databases separate to each other. Western sites do however treat them as a main show with seasons (tvdb, tvrage, etc.). Going by the discussions linked below it was never established as to how TMDB wants to go along with it. At the moment you can find single seasons in the DB however most shows are "westernized" given the db dump...

Anime production? (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2012-03-05 / https://washiblog.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/anime-production-detailed-guide-to-how-anime-is-made-and-the-talent-behind-it/ / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wMqH0sJ-zE)

➥ Easy decision to make. Either separate them and clean up all existing data or keep them as it is (season titles help here).

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/575c3f17c3a3685d8000063e, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/586fbfa7c3a3686dc7004c34, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5869a1c09251414e7a011dc4

Absolute numbers I'm sure you encountered this more than enough. Certain shows are just continuing on like One Piece. TVDB, Wikipedia, etc. do arc splits for them; TMDB has also taken over this practice (unofficially). Unlike TVDB you do not however not carry absolute numbers. So in case of One Piece the first episode of Season 16 is number 632 (or smth) in your DB... certainly doesn't make sense. Then there are other shows like Gintama that get released on streaming sites per absolute numbers but actually carry cour titles which anime dbs separate for the numbering (http://thexem.de/xem/show/305).

➥ Decide on arc splits, deal properly with absolute numbers.

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/575b883dc3a3684841000353, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5759c7dfc3a3684ea9002c1b

Split cour In recent years we saw more "split cours", aka shows that get their second half with a season gap in between. TVDB has decided to merge them together, anime dbs do however split them. A good example for this would be Durarara with three separate cours for season two (x2: Shou, Ten and Ketsu).

➥ Do you want to merge split cours? You'll find both practices in the db...

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/54bd63bdc3a3681421007ede (here is me getting it done the old tvdb way... s1 is a mess)

OVAs etc OVAs are disc releases of anime. TVDB for example does not allow them in their DB unless they can be paired with a show. They can be standalone series (only 2-3 episodes long) but also unaired episodes for tv shows. In plenty of cases when they're unaired episodes they're not bundled with the shows actual disc release but for example their original manga. It goes so far that those episodes then get labeled as say "Episode 14". The TV section also needs the adult tag for hentai content (last example)

➥ Are they welcomed in the DB? Where do you put standalones (movie, shows)? Can they become an additional season of a show? Can they be part of a season`that aired on TV?

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5873f0559251410e6d010d3e, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/575c3f17c3a3685d8000063e, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/589714cf9251415a5b012b61

Rebroadcasts Apparently there are no rules as to how to deal with edited rebroadcasts of shows in the US. At least it looks like that.

➥ I mean this is easy for me... Just don't allow those entries like recuts of movies etc.

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/54ac29fa9251415679004145

Various luckily we're getting rid of mini-series https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/56aca3e9c3a3681c340054d5...

Things that will also greatly help here:

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Yes, absolute numbering is coming no matter what for all TV.

@travisbell I'm not sure what real structure you need to create that 3rd parties would pull from, rather a site formatting solution that only allows certain inputs for Anime shows. This I think would be easiest since you are not changing anything the 3rd parties already use. If a show is an Anime the 'create new seasons' option is unavailable (etc). The only seasons you get from the beginning is 0 and 1, which would allow the 3rd parties to still keep their methods of searching intact.

However, @RubeensVinicius brings up the Saga/Arc question. You'd have to have another item to sort with, possibly 'Grouping' that people can enter the Arc names.

Also, when I have Subler pull metadata the show name is labeled under Album instead of TV Show, is that a here thing?

@irkillroy said:

@travisbell I'm not sure what real structure you need to create that 3rd parties would pull from, rather a site formatting solution that only allows certain inputs for Anime shows. This I think would be easiest since you are not changing anything the 3rd parties already use. If a show is an Anime the 'create new seasons' option is unavailable (etc). The only seasons you get from the beginning is 0 and 1, which would allow the 3rd parties to still keep their methods of searching intact.

The API should always expose the content as it should be with the necessary context.

With anime being different than normal US TV shows in that it doesn't have a season, why can't there be a selector when creating a new Show for anime that sets a format for how a user can create new episodes? You can remove the Seasons creation option entirely, and if the decision was to use Season 0 for OVAs and such then Season 0 and 1 are created with a continuous episode counter being available.

That take away is **false **as the majority of shows are like seasons - just labeled "cours" (their TV slots)... There is a reason why this issue only comes up for a subset of shows that always get mentioned again (and is not limited to their popularity); they are usually "shounen" shows that are based on long running manga series which can run forever.

Just taking a look at the current season and their sequels http://anichart.net/Summer-2017

They all fit under regular seasons except for the shounens running with continuing numbers and Teekyu which however still labels it's cours by number. You will find this for any running season, that's 30-40 sequels a year (IDK rly) versus a handful of the long running shows.

As previously mentioned : there is no reason to separate those shows or change anything away from seasons. The only thing that should be addressed are the big number guys and telenovas, super sentai things etc. To fill certain requirements we still can use 1) season based production information and 2) show relationships (w/e universe thingy that comes).

@RubeensVinicius said:

So @travisbell idk how doable this is or even if I should open up this can of worms again, but would it be possible to make all TV Shows use an absolute numbering by default (S02E04 of Game of Thrones would be E014), since it's the more one size fits all solution, and let the users set up different splits for the same show?

No one is referring to TV programming in absolute numbers. It should no way be the default.

The default one would be all the episodes on air order, the seasons would be the split cours according to the AniDB, and the sagas/arcs the one used here and at the TVDB. I just don't know how this would handle special episodes, the season 0, but maybe with some brainstorming here we could figure it out. :up:

Which would be close to what TVDB is doing for V2...

FLEXIBLE SEASONS Over the years, we've heard your complaints about how our episodes don't match up to what you'd expect. We know that some series, like Firefly, make far more sense sorted by Joss Whedon's preferred order rather than the order the episodes were aired. We know that our old air date, DVD, and absolute ordering system was restrictive and at times annoying.

To get around this issue, we've implemented something called flexible seasons. Our moderators are now able to enable any number of alternate orders for specific series (at their discretion). The episodes exist outside the season structure, which means each episode can be attached to various types of seasons without needing to recreate the episode (and cause management issues).

Not only does this allow us to handle things like Director's Preferred and Popular season types, but also gives us flexibility over series that use joined or split episodes depending on the format. For example, Looney Tunes episodes that were originally aired individually, but later joined into two-part episodes, can now be structured both ways.

It's a whole new world._

they're adding all the episodes on the first season for an absolute numbering and duplicating them is other seasons to have the Sagas. This is a mess. lol

Which can easily be regulated by pro-active moderation and setting up the non-existent series wiki... just like TVDB does. You will always have people wanting to manipulate content a certain way (to fit their data and the like).

Thank you for the thorough response. I see some of this has been mentioned once or twice in this thread (I read a little :grin: ). What I'm getting at isn't so much the end state as the means to allow inputs to be in a specific manner that would reduce the amount of moderator oversight.

Personally I feel the mention of cours is just a means to talk about how long something is. Many shows don't last long in Japan and are there to just tell a story and end, rarely picking up multiple "seasons" as we know them. Jin is a great example, people loved it so much they made Jin 2 instead of playing off of the original name.

I think Japanese anime should be a continuous run as they too tell stories and end when that is done. Add a grouping from metadata fields to allow people to define these story arcs (creating them as objects of course).

As for rearranging the show order, I can see the allure, but when you have programs like Subler pulling metadata, what does this option do for the end user? Is this option mostly for the website??

Came here from the same issue with One Piece.

Not sure how much of this has been mentioned here already (didn't get the time to read everything :stuck_out_tongue: ), but the Anime section is basically a mess. I mentioned in the linked issue above, since there's no "real" absolute numbering yet, people started to mess with the data in ways that are really not logical. One example is the use of seasons while using absolute numbering at the same time. Who does this, seriously? Especially the longer running series (One Piece, Naruto, Naruto mShippuuden, Bleach, Fairy Tail) are having this issue. Weirdly enough it wasn't picked up for series like Detective Conan/case closed or Pokémon, which are decidedly longer then any of the previously mentioned.

The thing for anime is that it's somewhat case-based I would say. For Naruto/-Shippuuden, One Piece or Pokemon it would make sense to just have seasons for the story arcs because they are produced on a weekly basis anyway. For other anime like maybe Attack on Titan or Shakugan no Shana (sticking to the mainstream stuff here :P ) it makes sense to just use the production times/cours for season numbering, usually the plot is somewhat closed up in the production times anyway.

Yup, it's all planned to get worked on. :thumbsup_tone2:

@mihawk90 said:

Came here from the same issue with One Piece.

Not sure how much of this has been mentioned here already (didn't get the time to read everything :stuck_out_tongue: ), but the Anime section is basically a mess. I mentioned in the linked issue above, since there's no "real" absolute numbering yet, people started to mess with the data in ways that are really not logical. One example is the use of seasons while using absolute numbering at the same time. Who does this, seriously? Especially the longer running series (One Piece, Naruto, Naruto mShippuuden, Bleach, Fairy Tail) are having this issue. Weirdly enough it wasn't picked up for series like Detective Conan/case closed or Pokémon, which are decidedly longer then any of the previously mentioned.

The thing for anime is that it's somewhat case-based I would say. For Naruto/-Shippuuden, One Piece or Pokemon it would make sense to just have seasons for the story arcs because they are produced on a weekly basis anyway. For other anime like maybe Attack on Titan or Shakugan no Shana (sticking to the mainstream stuff here :P ) it makes sense to just use the production times/cours for season numbering, usually the plot is somewhat closed up in the production times anyway.

I don't think that using cours makes sense. We are not always going to know which episode is in which cour. IMO the absolute numbering is the simplest route.

@irkillroy said:

I don't think that using cours makes sense. We are not always going to know which episode is in which cour. IMO the absolute numbering is the simplest route.

Actually, cours should always be the way to go if it isn't a continuous show IMO. In most cases they have a break of one year between them and a different name, it isn't really a problem. They ARE seasons after all.

In the best case scenario, each series would have support for 3 sortings at the same time — Absolute Numbering, Seasons/Cours and Sagas/Arcs, and only absolute would be required. I really don't like the idea of using sagas as seasons, and there are shows that doesn't have neither seasons or sagas, like telenovelas/Telemundo. This way, shows like Dragon Ball Super and One Piece could have only absolute and sagas, Telenovelas only absolute, Game of Thrones absolute and seasons.

@irkillroy said:

I don't think that using cours makes sense. We are not always going to know which episode is in which cour. IMO the absolute numbering is the simplest route.

If we're talking about actual cours we're always going to know which it belongs to because, as @RubeensVinicius said there's usually a pause in between.

Now if we're talking about continuous series (like the typical shounen stuff) they are usually divided into arcs (see my One Piece list above), and there's usually official lists of them. If not there's at least a consensus among fans and/or in the respective wikis most of the time.

@mihawk90 said:

@irkillroy said:

I don't think that using cours makes sense. We are not always going to know which episode is in which cour. IMO the absolute numbering is the simplest route.

If we're talking about actual cours we're always going to know which it belongs to because, as @RubeensVinicius said there's usually a pause in between.

Now if we're talking about continuous series (like the typical shounen stuff) they are usually divided into arcs (see my One Piece list above), and there's usually official lists of them. If not there's at least a consensus among fans and/or in the respective wikis most of the time.

Japanese shows that use cours will always number them. AJIN & AJIN 2 as a prime example. Weekly shows just keep numbering them higher and higher. That's why I don't think it works in every instance. If there are cours we can group them together or we should have them as a different show. Japan sure treats them that way.

@irkillroy said: Japanese shows that use cours will always number them. AJIN & AJIN 2 as a prime example. Weekly shows just keep numbering them higher and higher. That's why I don't think it works in every instance. If there are cours we can group them together or we should have them as a different show. Japan sure treats them that way.

Where do you take the fact from that Japan considers continuations as different "shows" from our understanding? I think I've listed enough examples to show the opposite. The aim should be to normalize what comes into the database. If we get hung up on words we would apply the same for ex. UK shows where they call "seasons" "series" :). The only thing worth singling out are the long running shounen and maybe stuff like Monogatari and for that Justin is hopefully building a proper solution.

@mihawk90 I don't think you will find a real consensus due to DVD releases which tend to be grouped differently from eachother when localized (however also exist in country of origin). As long as the solution allows for flexible grouping it will be fine... People tend not to wait for DVD releases or even the actual airing to create their groupings for on-air shows ;).

I'll use the Japanese Drama 'Jin' as my example. Here in Japan they call it Jin and Jin 2. There was never an intention to have a second "season" but they were two completely stand-alone shows, except Jin 2 was a continuation similar to a hit movie sequel such as Back to the Future 2.

Example of a Drama Series with just one cour is Karei Naru Spy and My Boss My Hero.

I'm simply saying that unless you have a show that is built with multiple cours in mind or even unintended like Jin then the show should be one continuous show count.

I'm really advocating that anime be single season... Not sure why there is any disagreement with that. DVD sales are just that, intended to spark interest. Anime tries to have themes in each cour labeled as "sagas" for us to better understand how Japanese tv consumption is done as well as market for DVD sales. An example of such is Dragon Ball Super's Future Trunks arc/saga/cour and Tournament of Power arc/saga/cour. The show has not stopped it's weekly airing and the cours are hardly timed perfectly as previously stated. They are just airing shows until the story is told and move on to the next.

Anime is NOT like normal Japanese shows. I'm curious how you would label the Japanese Variety Show 'London Hearts'.

@irkillroy said:

I'll use the Japanese Drama 'Jin' as my example. Here in Japan they call it Jin and Jin 2. There was never an intention to have a second "season" but they were two completely stand-alone shows, except Jin 2 was a continuation similar to a hit movie sequel such as Back to the Future 2.

Example of a Drama Series with just one cour is Karei Naru Spy and My Boss My Hero.

I'm simply saying that unless you have a show that is built with multiple cours in mind or even unintended like Jin then the show should be one continuous show count.

How are they "completely stand-alone shows" when they're clearly not? Same title, same characters, same source material, same staff, same channel... probably even references things from S1. It doesn't matter if something was intended to have a sequel or not... :moneybag: is boss for everything. I mean sure - a lot of anime is there for promotion of the source material but if no one watches it or it has no effect on the intended market it won't get more (and they would not make specials or OVAs if they did not intent to sell them). Anime is not at all an open book; you even have to count the intended episodes from the disc preorders because this isn't shared usually. With for ex. My Hero Academia everyone was under the assumption it would continue after S1 because it is based on a popular shounen BUT this was not announced at all at that point. It would be stupid to rely on information outside of a show to make decisions because you are not joining those execs meetings... Even a hit show like "Buffy" would end up split by your argument because it was at the time only intended as a quick mid-season replacement.

I'm really advocating that anime be single season... Not sure why there is any disagreement with that. DVD sales are just that, intended to spark interest. Anime tries to have themes in each cour labeled as "sagas" for us to better understand how Japanese tv consumption is done as well as market for DVD sales. An example of such is Dragon Ball Super's Future Trunks arc/saga/cour and Tournament of Power arc/saga/cour. The show has not stopped it's weekly airing and the cours are hardly timed perfectly as previously stated. They are just airing shows until the story is told and move on to the next.

And as mentioned in this thread: TVDB does the splits on shounen type shows because of worries of technical limitations... the V2 page can handle different season orders. That site also already features DVD and absolute order information for anyone wanting to rely on this. It's TMDB that has to adapt to even the most basic function (AO) and the users which are adding the content however they please (and have them different once you switch the translation lol). If TMDB wouldn't have done an initial TV data dump and a user started here unbiased I'm certain that One Piece would not have any seasons added.

I'm really not sure why your conclusion is that all anime should be single season when the aim here is to fit different types of content into the same database schema... You have a continuous story with the same characters (and actors) and production breaks in between. That's a show with seasons (note: I am in no way arguing to split long running weekly shows here). If we were to apply the opposite logic into the database this would mean merging all shows into single seasons from the US. Or does S5 of GOT have nothing to do with S1?

Anime is NOT like normal Japanese shows. I'm curious how you would label the Japanese Variety Show 'London Hearts'.

I don't watch any Jdramas or daily shows so IDK. Probably like TVDB would do it; name the seasons by year and episode by date (if unavailable).

wow, I must be missing something. As I said earlier, there are anime that break their show down, the example I used was AJIN, and having thought about it there are more like Attack on Titan and Knights of Sidonia. I'm not saying those show shouldn't be broken down by season/cour. I'm talking about the weekly shows like Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball, etc.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember but there was a time that US cartoons were daily shows that were all done as a sort of miniseries. Centurions is a prime example of that. There were no seasons for that. I wouldn't want to see that broken down by DVD release.

The first thing I requested here was that anime get an option when creating the show to have different season formatting inputs. As you said, there can be DVD release information that becomes available if that is the consensus.

I'm also not comparing TVDB to TMDB.

@irkillroy said:

wow, I must be missing something. As I said earlier, there are anime that break their show down, the example I used was AJIN, and having thought about it there are more like Attack on Titan and Knights of Sidonia. I'm not saying those show shouldn't be broken down by season/cour. I'm talking about the weekly shows like Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball, etc.

I'm sorry but the text along with "I'm really advocating that anime be single season" does not indicate that this is only about weekly shows :wink: ... So we're not actually disagreeing :confused:

I don't know if you're old enough to remember but there was a time that US cartoons were daily shows that were all done as a sort of miniseries. Centurions is a prime example of that. There were no seasons for that. I wouldn't want to see that broken down by DVD release.

All those different views should be optional. The default should always be what aired and not what was put on disc.

I'm also not comparing TVDB to TMDB.

I know, I just brought it up to point out why there are splits here for One Piece, Naruto & co. in the first place.

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