The Movie Database Support

Ever since the creation of the TV db there has really a distinct lack of guidance for it's content along with some missing implementations. One area where it has gotten especially noticeable for me is "Anime" - aka the cartoons from Japan. With one of the mods recently quitting that wanted to help in that area I think it is about time to tackle the issues. Now don't get me wrong, I do not want any "special" treatment for this type of content per se but guidelines addressing the issues that come up when entering it here. Currently it's just random depending on who is entering stuff (which is at a low standard for anime anyways) and I mostly limit myself to just clean up a little once it affects me (via trakt).

See some discussion points below. I didn't feel like writing it all out again so I linked some threads there. I'm sure there are things I forgot about just now.

Shows vs Productions Anime is usually aired in cours, which is a three-month long television season. Sequels and the like always get a new title for a cour and can have completely different staff and studios behind them (along with production committees, etc.). For those reasons you find the entries in anime specific databases separate to each other. Western sites do however treat them as a main show with seasons (tvdb, tvrage, etc.). Going by the discussions linked below it was never established as to how TMDB wants to go along with it. At the moment you can find single seasons in the DB however most shows are "westernized" given the db dump...

Anime production? (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2012-03-05 / https://washiblog.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/anime-production-detailed-guide-to-how-anime-is-made-and-the-talent-behind-it/ / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wMqH0sJ-zE)

➥ Easy decision to make. Either separate them and clean up all existing data or keep them as it is (season titles help here).

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/575c3f17c3a3685d8000063e, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/586fbfa7c3a3686dc7004c34, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5869a1c09251414e7a011dc4

Absolute numbers I'm sure you encountered this more than enough. Certain shows are just continuing on like One Piece. TVDB, Wikipedia, etc. do arc splits for them; TMDB has also taken over this practice (unofficially). Unlike TVDB you do not however not carry absolute numbers. So in case of One Piece the first episode of Season 16 is number 632 (or smth) in your DB... certainly doesn't make sense. Then there are other shows like Gintama that get released on streaming sites per absolute numbers but actually carry cour titles which anime dbs separate for the numbering (http://thexem.de/xem/show/305).

➥ Decide on arc splits, deal properly with absolute numbers.

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/575b883dc3a3684841000353, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5759c7dfc3a3684ea9002c1b

Split cour In recent years we saw more "split cours", aka shows that get their second half with a season gap in between. TVDB has decided to merge them together, anime dbs do however split them. A good example for this would be Durarara with three separate cours for season two (x2: Shou, Ten and Ketsu).

➥ Do you want to merge split cours? You'll find both practices in the db...

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/54bd63bdc3a3681421007ede (here is me getting it done the old tvdb way... s1 is a mess)

OVAs etc OVAs are disc releases of anime. TVDB for example does not allow them in their DB unless they can be paired with a show. They can be standalone series (only 2-3 episodes long) but also unaired episodes for tv shows. In plenty of cases when they're unaired episodes they're not bundled with the shows actual disc release but for example their original manga. It goes so far that those episodes then get labeled as say "Episode 14". The TV section also needs the adult tag for hentai content (last example)

➥ Are they welcomed in the DB? Where do you put standalones (movie, shows)? Can they become an additional season of a show? Can they be part of a season`that aired on TV?

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/5873f0559251410e6d010d3e, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/575c3f17c3a3685d8000063e, https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/589714cf9251415a5b012b61

Rebroadcasts Apparently there are no rules as to how to deal with edited rebroadcasts of shows in the US. At least it looks like that.

➥ I mean this is easy for me... Just don't allow those entries like recuts of movies etc.

https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/54ac29fa9251415679004145

Various luckily we're getting rid of mini-series https://www.themoviedb.org/talk/56aca3e9c3a3681c340054d5...

Things that will also greatly help here:

118 replies (on page 3 of 8)

Jump to last post

Previous pageNext pageLast page

I think, for regular anime then, new website to promote it > new season. If the existing website just gets more episodes added, add to current season (for example,. iDOLM@STER: Cinderella Girls, and Cinderella Girls 2nd Season just one season because it's on one website with 26 episodes), because Aria the Animation/Bakemonogatari etc has like many different websites for each anime so all in separate seasons?

And also for regular cartoons it would be great to add info per season (for example Totally Spies with different production countries/companies during its run..)

To add another example to what @RubeensVinicius said, Revolutionary Girl Utena is very much in the same boat. The third "arc" is divided in two by some people, but not all. What do we do in that case ? This could lead to opinionated edits that need to be "corrected" all the time, but which version is more "correct", since both of them are already personal interpretations ?

And what about shows like Naruto and Naruto Shippuden, which insert filler episodes or entire filler arcs in the middle of other arcs ? What do we do for those ?

The arc solution is practical for some shows, but nowhere near all of them.

And I'd argue that, given all the differences we've highlighted in this thread, anime is a snowflake case in the database, just like Tokusatsu shows and latin america TV shows. All follow roughly the same pattern and forcing them to stick in the mold of US/European TV (And even in European TV, we have long running weekly TV shows that don't follow the typical season-based structure) is wrong, in my opinion.

I agree that the bonus in season 0 issue should be a sitewide one, since it also concerns other TV shows AND movies. And in the case of movies, where do we put those bonuses ? As separate movies ? Introduce a new "related" field where bonuses would go ? A whole new kind of media, since bonuses are neither TV shows nor movies ? This is a never ending problem which would ask the devs to add many new features, which, in my opinion, are not even needed in the first place, at least for now.

For the split cour, I'd argue that a cour isn't a season and is not even officially recognized outside of the production of the various shows. And it doesn't fit some shows. The cour format started rather recently, in the grand scheme of things. If we go back to 80s anime, they don't follow that structure at all.

I also agree with the specials. Maybe, if the TV special was aired on TV during the broadcast, insert it in the episode list where it aired and have a checkbox to mark the episode as a TV special ? (Though that'd introduce changes in the API, by adding a new field to the episode object, which would probably break some things)

For rebroadcasts, I agree. Though in Haruhi Suzumiya's case, it's weird, since the second show isn't a follow up, it's a completion of things that weren't adapted and doesn't stand on it's own. A decision would have to be made on a case by case basis for those, I think.

For edited version (I remember someone mentioning that before), in the cases where the shows are wildly different (Macross/Robotech), these deserve separate entries, I don't think anyone will argue on that. For censoring (4Kids shows like YuGiOh, Pokemon, etc), we go we the original Japanese broadcast, since for every other TV shows, the database also uses the original broadcast.

Edit: I like @alltimemarr 's suggestion. Makes sense and follows the original Japanese advertising for the shows, which is a good source (We shouldn't base ourselves on US advertising like Funimation releases, imho, since the motto of the database is to go with the original information).

@RubeensVinicius said:

Anime isn't a snowflake medium, but at the same time, not every country follows the same format for their shows, tv shows in latin america follows a very similar format of the long-running animes like Dragon Ball and One Piece. Sure, it would be amazing if we could make all the tv shows in existence fit the same format, but this is really hard to achieve. So, i really think that adding a second format to the site would really help, the series with seasons isn't a supreme format to rule them all. :stuck_out_tongue:

That is why named seasons do not have to take away anything from it. It just keeps it tidy and corresponds with what Japan is doing themselves when they do something else besides updating the website. I posted my alternative suggestion otherwise too (headers).

Seems like the most common solution atm is using arcs as seasons. But, what do you do when you are editing a show that you didn't and don't plan to watch? Now you need to research where each arc ends, and this isn't a simple thing to find for most of the shows.

Yeah, it's not like Wikipedia does list all the episodes in arcs and you can just copy this:

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ONE_PIECE_(%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A1)_%E3%81%AE%E3%82%A8%E3%83%94%E3%82%BD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7)

That is what anyone not familiar with the content would do anyways.

And sometimes this is too arbitrary, just look at "Stardust Crusaders", the second season of "JoJo's Bizarre Adventure" here on TMDb. If you look at sites like AniDB or MyAnimeList, they separate this season in 2, "Stardust Crusaders" and "Stardust Crusaders - Battle in Egypt", but in other sites considers it's only one season. You could argue that both of them are the "Stardust Crusaders Arc", but at the same time, they were exhibited as two different shows, if you look at their site, there's really these two arcs there.

They were not exhibited as two different shows, they are exhibited as cours, split cours to be precise. They still belong together. If we're going terminology this is the one Japan uses : cours. Just like the Brits have "Series" as "Seasons". You'll find enough references in Japanese that translates or treats them as seasons (to our Western understanding), that is why TVDB does consider things like this mid-season breaks and this aligns with my understanding as well.

And now, why is Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z different shows, but JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders are the same? Shouldn't Dragon Ball Z be the second season of Dragon Ball then?

The Dragon Ball thing is a good question... probably a big enough timeskip to make them "different"?

See? This isn't practical at all. If we use the same solution that the networks and sites like AniDB uses, any person could add and edit these shows, without any previous knowledge about them. How many times someone reports that an anime is wrong, but the moderators don't know what to do because we are so arbitrary on how we separate them. This is why I think that MrTimscampi's solution is the best way to solve this problem at the moment.

Who reports anime every season? There is hardly an established anime community on TMDB... I've tried a complete season a year ago and no one contributed, most of those are still incomplete records. There is also a huge gap from the initial TV database dump that was imported that is still not here or corrected. Most of the issues you probably encounter stem from that time and not the current stuff :wink: .

Anime sites themselves are also not always in unison about things, like Sailor Moon Crystal recently or when it comes to the inclusion of unbroadcasted episodes etc.

Anyways, I would find bewildering to add every cour of a"TV show" as a separate, new "TV show". Do you not consider them one show? Japan does that, even if they name the cour. We can find a solution for split cours or long running shounen but those rare exceptions should not result in TMDB discarding the "TV show" logic and following specialized databases...

@MrTimscampi said:

To add another example to what @RubeensVinicius said, Revolutionary Girl Utena is very much in the same boat. The third "arc" is divided in two by some people, but not all. What do we do in that case ? This could lead to opinionated edits that need to be "corrected" all the time, but which version is more "correct", since both of them are already personal interpretations ?

This is again not a problem unique to anime. There are tons of shows with misunderstandings causing people to do shitty edits (Black Mirror, Pretty Little Liars, Mythbusters, Lost Room, American Dad, etc.). That is why TVDB is heavily moderated but at least rules on those cases. Much of TMDBs TV content is "unclaimed" and from a data dump... there can unfortunately not be the assumption that they're correct in the way the currently are.

And what about shows like Naruto and Naruto Shippuden, which insert filler episodes or entire filler arcs in the middle of other arcs ? What do we do for those ?

IDK, split the arcs at the end and continue on under a new one and add the episode info once you actually know what it is instead of dumping 50 templates into a season :grinning: ?

The arc solution is practical for some shows, but nowhere near all of them.

Could you really come up with a significant number of shows that are affected by this? There are the shounen jump shows, otherwise there is very little each season if at all to discuss about...

And I'd argue that, given all the differences we've highlighted in this thread, anime is a snowflake case in the database, just like Tokusatsu shows and latin america TV shows. All follow roughly the same pattern and forcing them to stick in the mold of US/European TV (And even in European TV, we have long running weekly TV shows that don't follow the typical season-based structure) is wrong, in my opinion.

Anime is not a snowflake medium in the database, it's only a limited number of shows this applies to (arc splits, split cour)...

For the split cour, I'd argue that a cour isn't a season and is not even officially recognized outside of the production of the various shows. And it doesn't fit some shows. The cour format started rather recently, in the grand scheme of things. If we go back to 80s anime, they don't follow that structure at all.

Split cours are a new thing yes, cours themselves not really. https://myanimelist.net/anime/season/archive has plenty of shows that fit into that from the past.

For edited version (I remember someone mentioning that before), in the cases where the shows are wildly different (Macross/Robotech), these deserve separate entries, I don't think anyone will argue on that. For censoring (4Kids shows like YuGiOh, Pokemon, etc), we go we the original Japanese broadcast, since for every other TV shows, the database also uses the original broadcast.

Sure, I agree to this.

Edit: I like @alltimemarr 's suggestion. Makes sense and follows the original Japanese advertising for the shows, which is a good source (We shouldn't base ourselves on US advertising like Funimation releases, imho, since the motto of the database is to go with the original information).

I don't think having a new website should be required to consider something a new season. Obviously not relying on licensees for the info but if something had a longer break (+2cours) they can be considered a new season that required the necessary production even if the web sites just numbers them on (or something in this vain).

As I suggested in another thread, a fix for the Season 0 disagreement would be to implement a relationship system in the database, as well as a Specials feature.

You could mark a TV show or movie as a sequel, spin-off, parent show, remake, etc of another show. This would be useful outside of anime (Think about Star Trek, JAG/NCIS, ...)
This would fix a lot of things, as clients could just decide to merge every direct sequel for a show with the show being scraped. It would allow us to go with the most information on the database side, while clients could please different users' tastes (It's more difficult to split a show client-side with info you don't have than to throw away information and merge things)

The Specials feature would be separate from the seasons and hold making-of, TV specials, etc. This would also be useful outside of anime as well. As there would be a relationship system in place, ever multi-episode OVA and such would get its own TV series, with the proper relationship information.

My third feature proposal was a popular one: absolute order. This still goes with the motto of "most info on the DB side", allowing arc splits for long-running shows, but allowing clients to just get every episode in absolute order.

A fix for the Haruhi Suzumiya case, that would still also be beneficial for some regular TV, would be handling "viewing orders". The new version of TVDB supports it and, basically, it allows the TV show/Movie set to have multiple viewing orders, the default one being Broadcast order. An example of a regular TV show that would benefit from this is Firefly, which had a different broadcast order than was intended by Joss Whedon.

I tried to always think about anime as a non-snowflake genre and all the features make sense for other shows as well. These would fix quite a lot of the disagreement that we had in this thread, by giving more information server-side and implicitly giving more control client-side.

You could mark a TV show or movie as a sequel, spin-off, parent show, remake, etc of another show. This would be useful outside of anime (Think about Star Trek, JAG/NCIS, ...) This would fix a lot of things, as clients could just decide to merge every direct sequel for a show with the show being scraped.

I suggested relationship-esque handling as well just more in a "mapping/link into" fashion. The problem with the feature as you suggested is more the overlap with the collections. Travis is already working on an extension of the current system but hasn't told us much else besides adressing "universes". The current mainstream king for this would be superhero franchaises and those would also be the ones making your suggestion quite difficult to properly implement. Imagine having to build the proper relationship of something like Superman through the aeons and now add in any crossovers :sunglasses:

It would allow us to go with the most information on the database side

You're still "pro" splitting anime sequel seasons? I mean that would make anime content the snowflake I talked about. Season based production info could also cover this :grinning: . Mapping would be season or even episode based anyways (think agents of shield).

@sp1ti said:

So in case of One Piece the first episode of Season 16 is number 632 (or smth) in your DB... certainly doesn't make sense.

➥ Decide on arc splits, deal properly with absolute numbers.

I don't know what the end goal is for One Piece, but the absolute numbers were @orangeprincess's doing and without proper support no Episode 1 = no season air date. :worried:

sp1ti,

Why does the header/title say 'the chineese cartoons need help' when you were originally referencing 'Japanese Anime'? You have also spelled 'Chinese' wrong.

A question for the mods: Why aren't the 'modifications' we make to a post actually showing up? I have had problems with bolding, it shows as bold in the preview but in the final post it's shows 2 asterisks in front and in the back? I have read other people are having trouble too.

@bratface said:

sp1ti,

Why does the header/title say 'the chineese cartoons need help' when you were originally referencing 'Japanese Anime'? You have also spelled 'Chinese' wrong. [...]

To provide multiple layers of irony :sunglasses: ... the rest of of your post is probably best answered in a separate thread.

So, where are we at Travis :confused: ?

@sp1ti said:

So, where are we at Travis :confused: ?

bumpedy-bump

Whoring for a reply is really sad... new season shows starting in less than a month: progress 0. :shrug:

Waiting for 2 months now for a reply from Travis.

I don't have anything new to report, it's on my list of things to do "this year":

  • New homepage
  • HTML version of all emails (signup, password reset, watchlist alerts, etc.)
  • New company pages
  • Design for the upcoming “Contribution Bible”
  • Start working on editorial features and section (tied to new homepage)
  • Re-design the review section
  • Finish The Consensus section
  • Create “Awards & Trivia” section
  • Design for multiple version support (different cuts, extended releases, etc…)
  • Look at improved TV season grouping/numbering/long running options (for example anime)
  • Continue rebuilding the API
  • Rebuild the search service
  • Rebuild the image service
  • Restore list searches

I won't make it through all of that this year and the order of items is completely in flux. All I can say is it's on my list.

Thanks for the reply. It was not clear at all for me from your previous post that you took something away for your to-do list. Just to understand this properly; season level information is a no-no and you're looking for a way to to group shows (for one)? Aka you want to split up seasons into shows? Or is this solely targeted at dealing with big/long-running shows and the likes? Because then the former still needs an answer.

I edited my post for slightly better clarity.

Grouping shows is one thing but more specifically look at how we'll be able to handle big long running shows that don't necessarily have seasons, and more story arcs or DVD releases, etc... What I want to do is build a system that won't have this constraint at all.

Global

s focus the search bar
p open profile menu
esc close an open window
? open keyboard shortcut window

On media pages

b go back (or to parent when applicable)
e go to edit page

On TV season pages

(right arrow) go to next season
(left arrow) go to previous season

On TV episode pages

(right arrow) go to next episode
(left arrow) go to previous episode

On all image pages

a open add image window

On all edit pages

t open translation selector
ctrl+ s submit form

On discussion pages

n create new discussion
w toggle watching status
p toggle public/private
c toggle close/open
a open activity
r reply to discussion
l go to last reply
ctrl+ enter submit your message
(right arrow) next page
(left arrow) previous page