Maybe I can clarify a bit more...

This actor's family name is Song, and his given name is Kang-ho (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Kang-ho). So by western standards his name would be written as Kang-ho Song. However in Korea, names are usualy written with family name first, so it would be Song Kang-ho.

IMDb always uses the [given name] [family name] order, no matter what country somebody is from. This is a valid approach, but another approach is to use the order of the person's country of origin, or the order the person prefers.

Although TMDb doesn't seem to have an official policy on this, looking at most other names on the website, it seems this second approach is mostly taken.

Now I personally don't care which approach is taken, but I do value consistency. So to be consistent with the rest of TMDb, I think the name should be changed to Song Kang-ho.

@geertjan said: Now I personally don't care which approach is taken, but I do value consistency. So to be consistent with the rest of TMDb, I think the name should be changed to Song Kang-ho.

TMDB is also following the western standard in the English/general fields but translation of the names allow for the localized order. I know that for Japanese names it's pretty consistent but I believe the Korean's not exactly... I myself have usually a hard time to determine which is which and I feel the same applies for IMDB (whose DB at the end is also largely user-sourced).

TMDB is also following the western standard in the English/general fields but translation of the names allow for the localized order. I know that for Japanese names it's pretty consistent but I believe the Korean's not exactly...

Cool, but yeah, it seems TMDb is not very consistent with Korean names yet.

I myself have usually a hard time to determine which is which and I feel the same applies for IMDB (whose DB at the end is also largely user-sourced).

In my experience IMDb is very consistent, with all names in the [given name] [family name] order. For me that's one advantage IMDb still has (one of few of course :))

@geertjan said: Cool, but yeah, it seems TMDb is not very consistent with Korean names yet.

Yeah I guess this is something that built up over the years and people didn't find the need to change (or didn't know better). Despite not explicitly stating it one should think that it's obvious that the "English" name order applies [...] Person objects do not currently support translations. Until they do, it is assumed that all names and biographies are to be in English, using the English alphabet. For non English names (Cyrillic, Vietnamese, etc..) you should add these as alternative names. [...]

In my experience IMDb is very consistent, with all names in the [given name] [family name] order. For me that's one advantage IMDb still has (one of few of course :))

I agree that it's mostly reliable but I've also seen a fair share of entries with asian name order.

I have changed it. I'll make sure it gets added to the documentation. It was correct until a moderator changed it last summer. Part of getting a more extended documentation - or bible - is to get all moderators on the same page with regards to issues such as this one.

IMDb always uses the [given name] [family name] order, no matter what country somebody is from. This is a valid approach, but another approach is to use the order of the person's country of origin, or the order the person prefers.

I truly hope TMDB would not follow IMDb with regards to East Asian names. I'm Asian myself and I always find it a mild distraction on IMDb, and due to the site's popularity quite a few non-Asian film websites also use the western order for Chinese/Korean. Only people completely unfamiliar with East Asian cinema (or cannot be bothered with foreign names) would use Kang-ho Song when referring to this man. There is at least one Asian film/TV community that I know of that is using this site's api, so I'd suggest the mods to consider using the preferred name order of each region instead of following western order.

When it comes to English names, Koreans and Chinese always go by [family name][given name] in their official documents, unless they have Christian/English first names. e.g Lee (surname) Byung-hun (given name), Wong (surname) Kar-wai (given name), Kris (English first name) Wu (surname)

Modern Japanese usually use the Western order of [given name][family name] for their romaji names in English publications, even though it is written and pronounced the other way in Japanese.. e.g. Akira (given) Kurosawa (surname) However, pre-Meiji historical figures like Oda Nobunaga retain the Japanese order.

Listing the exceptions one has to know to decide on the proper order does not really help this argument*. But to be fair, it's also true for the reverse. Most Asian content here is not added by their local audience and only a tiny fraction would probably be able to add credits off the source due to the different alphabets anyways and for that IMDB is a big help . Since TMDB is a database it only makes sense to me to normalize the data for the desired locale.

*it's not only the inconsistencies that are a problem but the sheer number of exceptions that make it impossible:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)/Names
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_name#Eastern_name_order

We can probably just add something generic like 'The country's preferred order should be used unless the person uses a different order. For East Asian names that usually means [family name] [given name].' and add something to encourage users to google to find out about the many, many exceptions.

@banana_girl said:

We can probably just add something generic like 'The country's preferred order should be used unless the person uses a different order. For East Asian names that usually means [family name] [given name].' and add something to encourage users to google to find out about the many, many exceptions.

Splitting hairs here but If you take a look at the wiki talk on Chinese names it should be quite obvious that it's not "the countries" preferred order that is used but a custom that got applied to it and no one bothered to correct or change. No one obviously wants to have their name reversed but it's been done to "match" (same with taking on different names for "Westerners" be it actors or people working internationally). But do we really believe people of their respective origins want to browse TMDB in English and really care? They have their own movie databases utilizing their actual alphabet. The only proper solution is to add fields for family name/given name and match those up when looking up people but this would also require changes on the TMDB interface and is another thing that is implemented a bit "too late". And if you really want to define Origin specific rules it has to be definite and not a "wish" each country of origin defined with their exceptions because otherwise it's worthless (because it's never done consistent for a country across all platforms). But even then I can assure you that due to the data origin most contributions will still follow the IMDB example.

The only proper solution is to add fields for family name/given name and match those up when looking up people but this would also require changes on the TMDB interface and is another thing that is implemented a bit "too late".

It could be useful, but we would still have most of the same problems we have now...

And if you really want to define Origin specific rules it has to be definite and not a "wish" each country of origin defined with their exceptions because otherwise it's worthless

I'm not sure if that's possible. Wiki is kind of a mess...

But even then I can assure you that due to the data origin most contributions will still follow the IMDB example.

Maybe, but I doubt that's going to stop us. We're pretty used to going against IMDb

I have to disagree with sp1ti that IMDB is a big help when entering Asian films into TMDB. In fact, relying on IMDB is quite possibly the worst way to do it. I understand that not everyone can read/write Chinese or Korean or Japanese but IMDB is full full full of errors, unless you're talking about huge, well-known films like say, As Tears Go By, Raise the Red Lantern, Oldboy, etc. etc... and nobody is fixing those errors.

The general practice pretty much everywhere (apart from the IMDB, which is dumb) is, for Chinese and Korean names, to use the family name and then the first name. I don't think this is some sort of question of preference at all. After all, it's not like a bunch of users got together and decided "we should make all Korean names have the Western name order". This is just people copying information from IMDB.

I don't think this is some sort of question of preference at all.

Yeah, bad idea, that word won't be used

Please bear with me. Would something like this be better?

The Eastern name order [family name] [given name] should be used when appropriate for transliterated East Asian names (Chinese, Korean), as dictated by common practice, unless a country-specific exception (e.g. thirstyhippo's examples) or a case-by-case exception (i.e. the person is known to use a different order) applies.

Sure! I think that's quite reasonable. What do the others think?

Great, very well put! I love that my post about Song Kang-ho sparked this discussion.

Should something also be added about capitalization? I noticed names on TMDb are written like "Song Kang-ho", which seems correct to me and what you usually find on other sites like Wikipedia, but other names are capitalized like "Song Kang-Ho". Or is this too nitpicky of me to add to the documentation?

@geertjan said:

Should something also be added about capitalization? I noticed names on TMDb are written like "Song Kang-ho", which seems correct to me and what you usually find on other sites like Wikipedia, but other names are capitalized like "Song Kang-Ho". Or is this too nitpicky of me to add to the documentation?

YES! Could you help me with the wording for this one? What are the capitalization rules exactly?

By the way, if any of you can think of more East Asian stuff that should be added in the documentation, I'm all ears.