@mechajutaro said:

@cswood said:

I like Jessica Chastain, but come on, she's a 40 year old 5'4 120 pound person easily beating up dudes twice her size. Even with special training she's just too tiny to be believable. That and script and action direction are sloppy. You need a big woman like Gina Carano to pull this off.

All of life is a trade off, hoss. You can cast a seasoned MMA fighter like Carano or Rousssey, who probably can mop the floor with average guy off the street without breaking a sweat, but also can't deliver a line or play a scene anymore convincingly that Siri could. Or you can hire an actress, and count on the audience to suspend their disbelief, provided that the story, direction, and production values are strong

It's not all that much different from casting a 5'7 and ordinarily slender Kit Harrington as Jon Snow, and having him bulk up for the role. This, rather than luring a real-life SAS operator away from the service with a few million bucks, casting him as The B-stard Snow who turned out to be a Targaryen, then trying to teach him how to act

Hey hey hey, Carano's not chopped liver. Haywire and Daughter of the Wolf were serviceable action flicks. Scott Atkins isn't exactly an A List actor but he makes entertaining action movies because he can actually do the physical stunts.

Kit Harrington in GoT is a bit of a different case given he, you know, died and came back to life. He also got his ass kicked a few times and survived only by the skin of his teeth and his ice zombie killing sword, which is why we bought into his character. The last season was crap so I won't defend that, but Bruce Lee was 5'7 but was in perfect physical shape and thus appeared to be capable of what he was doing.

Chastain looked like she could barely lift a box of wine in this movie and it just seemed too easy for her aside from her brawl with Farrell. The movie constantly tells us how she's the best without really showing us. Michelle Yeoh is also a thin woman but she could pull off the physicality of her roles. ScarJo is convincing as Black Widow and Gal is convincing as Wonder Woman so this isn't just me attacking women in action roles, but Chastain just did not look the part at all and thus was not convincing.

@mechajutaro said:

I loved Haywire, though I'm unfamiliar with Daughter Of The Wolf. I'll be the last to call Carano's MMA proficiency into question; there's also no confusing her with being much of an actress in any sense of that word

Better example than Harrington in GOT: The incomparable Cillian Murphy, who's been ploughing through guys six times his size(both with the benefit of weapons and without)for five seasons of Peaky Blinders now. Who'da thunk that near-mangina from 28 Days later would emerge as a force to be reckoned with? One cannot give enough props to him

I haven't seen Peaky Blinders but Cillian is quite literally a bean pole. I don't like it when they do this with guys either. I saw American Ultra where they tried to turn Jesse Eisenberg into an action star. No, sorry, not buying it.

@mechajutaro said:

Not having seen Ava yet, I'll have to take your word regarding Chastain not being terribly convincing in her role, Ask. Much as I've enjoyed her work in the past, it's not inconceivable that either A)this movie was rushed into production, and not having the money of an MCU film, couldn't a lot the time or resources for the cast to get into shape/train for their scenes ala. ScarJo as Black Widow , or B)JChast pulled a Robert Pattinson on us, and simply flipped the producers the bird when they suggest that she put on a little muscle for the role. Insofar as the script constantly reminding the audience that our heroine is the best there is, while her actions don't quite match up.... That's the state of a lot of girl power these days

I watched it because of Chastain but she just... she seemed like she wasn't taking the role seriously. I remember her role in The Debt where they tried to establish her as this badass Mossad Agent who could kick butt, then the twist was she got her butt kicked by an elderly geriatric former nazi who had been tortured for days, but he was bigger and taller than her so I was like "yeah, I can see that happening". Plus it was based on a true story so I guess that really happened.

I've just seen way too many viral videos of these tiny women provoking dudes either thinking they can take the dude or the dude won't hit back, and then they push him too far and he knocks her out in one punch/slap. I mean if it's Gwendoline Christie, okay, I can buy that. Even Ronda Rousey who's not that tall has a good physique. Not Chastain, she's just too tiny.

This movie is 50% La Femme Nikita/Jason Bourne and 50% Family drama and it adds up to 100% boring crappy and uninteresting movie. They keep wallowing on Jessica Chastain's issues with her mother, sister and ex boyfriend and it's the most uninteresting crap I've come across all year. Even the Nikita/Bourne stuff is the same tired old sh!t that has been done a million times already with the hitman & failed hit and gets hunted himself trope. A big old meh and yawn.

Agree with the criticisms, even ANNA is better. Ava is unlikeable (knowingly getting it on with her ex who's now with her sister) but the main reason is how bad the fight scenes are; poorly choreographed with no sense of how this tiny woman could take down multiple people. I might have been able to get over the clichéd and unoriginal story had the action scenes been any good.

I was actually thinking about Haywire too; Chastain is 100x better an actress than Gina Carano but Haywire is a much better film (and I wasn't too particularly fond of that).

I'll never understand how filmmakers can cast someone who is clearly not up to snuff physically in roles that require super-human abilities. JC had no discernible muscle tone in this role, and appeared to have a very dumpy mom-bod in general. What happened to actors who prepared for these kinds of physically demanding roles?

Otherwise, the dialog was fairly cringey (I scrubbed through all the scenes with her mother and ex) and of course they had to inject a token interracial relationship like out of nowhere.

@MongoLloyd said:

I'll never understand how filmmakers can cast someone who is clearly not up to snuff physically in roles that require super-human abilities. JC had no discernible muscle tone in this role, and appeared to have a very dumpy mom-bod in general. What happened to actors who prepared for these kinds of physically demanding roles?

Otherwise, the dialog was fairly cringey (I scrubbed through all the scenes with her mother and ex) and of course they had to inject a token interracial relationship like out of nowhere.

Those parts with the sister, mother and ex-boyfriend were the worst parts of the movie. At least they were if we are not allowed to say that the worst part was the movie itself from start to finish, which we are! So I'm saying the entire movie was complete garbage, but those utterly pointless drama scenes with her mother etc. somehow still managed to bring it down a notch. Seriously I have to wonder what did those scenes with Geena Davis actually add to the movie? Absolutely nothing except being able to say "Hey we got Geena Davis in this movie", which isn't worth much these days anyways. The "action" scenes aren't much better. I don't know which one was the most stupid one, but I guess it would have to be the one where she returns some gambling debts of his ex-boyfriend and for no reason assaults the entire club just to show off her "impressive" fighting prowess. Then again the one where Colin Farrell, who I guess is now the head of the CIA (or whatever) assasination league just appears in her room and they duke it out in the room only for him to hightail it for whatever reason. Why is he even trying to kill her in the first place? A solid 1/10 movie with no redeeming features.

@aholejones said:

Seriously I have to wonder what did those scenes with Geena Davis actually add to the movie? Absolutely nothing except being able to say "Hey we got Geena Davis in this movie"

Too true. I actually became a huge fan of Geena Davis thanks to The Long Kiss Goodnight, that's still one of my favorite buddy action comedies from the 90s, but you are right it really did feel like they got her at the last minute and then improved some scenes for her to be in.

I also found out Chastain and Jess Weixler are best friends so that explains why her pointless scenes were in the movie.

@aholejones said:

The "action" scenes aren't much better. I don't know which one was the most stupid one, but I guess it would have to be the one where she returns some gambling debts of his ex-boyfriend and for no reason assaults the entire club just to show off her "impressive" fighting prowess.

That was a real crappy fight scene but I feel the one in the Middle East where she takes out numerous soldiers was so so bad. It was like slow motion fighting. Also she's meant to be all moral by asking her targets what they did yet she killed off countless soldiers for just doing their job.

Then again the one where Colin Farrell, who I guess is now the head of the CIA (or whatever) assasination league just appears in her room and they duke it out in the room only for him to hightail it for whatever reason.

Also where the hell was he walking to afterwards? Surely he'd have some wheels for a quick getaway or as a head of agency some backup/assistance. Yet after the fight it seemed as though he was aimlessly walking the streets.

@cswood said:

Too true. I actually became a huge fan of Geena Davis thanks to The Long Kiss Goodnight, that's still one of my favorite buddy action comedies from the 90s, but you are right it really did feel like they got her at the last minute and then improved some scenes for her to be in.

When I saw Geena Davis was in it as the mother for a moment I thought this was going to be a sequel to The Long Kiss Goodnight! Glad it wasn't...

I think some of you are missing the point. Someone like Gina Carano would be absolutely unbelievable seducing rich and powerful guys. If the mission were to get half a biker bar into a ménage à plenty, well maybe.

I don't know what this movie is trying to be. People in it take hundreds of hits, any of which would be completely disabling, but they keep on going a tho it were a superhero movie. Somewhat ironically the script even references Wonder Woman. So amidst all that incredible stuff to single out Chastain as being too slight for the role is like straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

Look, it's a decent hour and a half of action with some odd bits that slow everything down and don't really belong. My guess is it's a female attempt at the sort of action movie men have been making for decades. But there isn't much here that hasn't been done before and better. I can't imagine a Bond film being slowed down with all that Daddy issue stuff. What on Earth were the makers thinking that because the protaganist is a woman that that stuff somehow becomes relevant?

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

I think some of you are missing the point. Someone like Gina Carano would be absolutely unbelievable seducing rich and powerful guys. If the mission were to get half a biker bar into a ménage à plenty, well maybe.

Yeah like she did in Haywire? She's not the greatest actress in the world but if she slimmed down and got back into shape she would've made this movie far more enjoyable.

Chastain can do the seducing part but she can not do the manhandling guys twice her size part, which is the draw of the movie. Quite frankly I'm tired of this being the norm now because you can google dozens of videos of real life women trying this with men and getting knocked out in one punch/slap.

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

Look, it's a decent hour and a half of action

But it's not, it's a bad movie all around. The action and plot are incredibly lackluster. And over on the Nobody message board there are people saying they don't believe Bob Odenkirk as an action badass even though that movie is clearly tongue-in-cheek, but his character is a grizzled old army vet and he sells it. If Ava wasn't taking itself so damn seriously it might be fun and I could give it a pass but Chastain just doesn't work for this. Olga Kurylenko is on the skinny side but she's much better at selling these kind of roles.

@cswood said:

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

I think some of you are missing the point. Someone like Gina Carano would be absolutely unbelievable seducing rich and powerful guys. If the mission were to get half a biker bar into a ménage à plenty, well maybe.

Yeah like she did in Haywire? She's not the greatest actress in the world but if she slimmed down and got back into shape she would've made this movie far more enjoyable.

Chastain can do the seducing part but she can not do the manhandling guys twice her size part, which is the draw of the movie. Quite frankly I'm tired of this being the norm now because you can google dozens of videos of real life women trying this with men and getting knocked out in one punch/slap.

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

Look, it's a decent hour and a half of action

But it's not, it's a bad movie all around. The action and plot are incredibly lackluster. And over on the Nobody message board there are people saying they don't believe Bob Odenkirk as an action badass even though that movie is clearly tongue-in-cheek, but his character is a grizzled old army vet and he sells it. If Ava wasn't taking itself so damn seriously it might be fun and I could give it a pass but Chastain just doesn't work for this. Olga Kurylenko is on the skinny side but she's much better at selling these kind of roles.

Starting with your last point first, when I say 'decent' I mean 'tolerable'. It has a mid 5s rating here and at imdb, and if I could split stars that is what I would have given it on this site. All of its technical values are solid: acting, cinematography etc. Cutting to the chase, nearly every action film ever made is ridiculous in its premise and depiction of combat. It's what the genre does. To criticise the movie on that basis is I think unfair. My main complaint is that neither the story nor the action scenes deliver anything new.

You are entitled to your opinion that Carano would have made for a better movie. Frankly I find the idea ridiculous. I don't know whether you are old enough to remember the days when video rental stores had an entire wall devoted to straight to video action movies with titles like 'Sudden Impact' and 'Fatal Destruction' and 'Seven Days Until Armageddon'. (I'm making these titles up, but they might actually exist.) Well, that's what you would have ended up with if someone like Carano was the lead. And not to be rude about it, I'm not a high roller, but even I would pass, and it would be an easy pass, on inviting Carano into the back seat with me. Might suit someone who was sitting on the fence with regard to their sexual orientation tho.

I confess I haven't seen the film but judging by the trailer it looks like Chastain's unsuitability look like the least of the film's issues. There just doesn't look like there is any reason to watch it. It looks dull, cliched, run of the mill and it doesn't even look like there's any action in there. Or at least it looks very bland. I know people have referred to it numerous times in this thread but is there any action in the film? And when I say action I mean actual action, not someone running and firing a gun for 3 seconds. Like an actual choreographed set piece.

@JustinJackFlash said:

I confess I haven't seen the film but judging by the trailer it looks like Chastain's unsuitability look like the least of the film's issues. There just doesn't look like there is any reason to watch it. It looks dull, cliched, run of the mill and it doesn't even look like there's any action in there. Or at least it looks very bland. I know people have referred to it numerous times in this thread but is there any action in the film? And when I say action I mean actual action, not someone running and firing a gun for 3 seconds. Like an actual choreographed set piece.

There's an awful lot of what might be called 'hand to hand' combat of the highly choreographed sort. None of it looks even remotely real. And contrary to that other posters have said, that has little to do with Chastain's build. The fight scene between Malkovich and Farrell is every bit as bad.

I don't know what sort of person enjoys krav maga performed as a dance routine, but it isn't me.

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

There's an awful lot of what might be called 'hand to hand' combat of the highly choreographed sort. None of it looks even remotely real. And contrary to that other posters have said, that has little to do with Chastain's build. The fight scene between Malkovich and Farrell is every bit as bad.

I don't know what sort of person enjoys krav maga performed as a dance routine, but it isn't me.

Like a dance routine? That sounds like something that would be in some kind of mental spoof. Don't think I'll be watching this any time soon.

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

Starting with your last point first, when I say 'decent' I mean 'tolerable'. It has a mid 5s rating here and at imdb, and if I could split stars that is what I would have given it on this site. All of its technical values are solid: acting, cinematography etc. Cutting to the chase, nearly every action film ever made is ridiculous in its premise and depiction of combat. It's what the genre does. To criticise the movie on that basis is I think unfair. My main complaint is that neither the story nor the action scenes deliver anything new.

If that's how you feel good on you but I found it to be below average and it's another lazy Direct to Streaming action movie with bad action. People make fun of Scott Atkins' acting but at least the man knows how to fight.

Even though it wasn't a great movie try Unlocked with Noomi Rapace, she's a tiny woman too but she sells her combat ability far better than Chastain does.

@Jacinto Cupboard said:

You are entitled to your opinion that Carano would have made for a better movie. Frankly I find the idea ridiculous. I don't know whether you are old enough to remember the days when video rental stores had an entire wall devoted to straight to video action movies with titles like 'Sudden Impact' and 'Fatal Destruction' and 'Seven Days Until Armageddon'. (I'm making these titles up, but they might actually exist.) Well, that's what you would have ended up with if someone like Carano was the lead. And not to be rude about it, I'm not a high roller, but even I would pass, and it would be an easy pass, on inviting Carano into the back seat with me. Might suit someone who was sitting on the fence with regard to their sexual orientation tho.

That's not fair though, the women of the 80s were young and almost all in fantastic shape compared to today where they mostly promote frumpy women pushing 30. Carano in her 20s was not a bad looking woman, and even now if she slimmed down she'd look pretty good for her age. Cynthia Rothrock wasn't a knockout in the looks department but she could sell the action and that's why people loved her.