I agree with all you said, except with point 4 on Woman. I don't believe AI created her; the implication I got was that it knew about her escaping the mines etc. but let her live. She had the experiences and drawings of people from the mines and it was never mentioned that AI could create/implant memories.

Why would an AI waste their energy fiddling around with humans, an inferior being? Especially after they decimated the human race? If I were an AI, I would immediately recognize the threat that the human race is to the entire planet. If you're suggesting that a single generation of a single human could somehow have innate human nature trained out of them, LOLOLOLOL.

Great recap HAL 9010' :-)

@cpheonix said:

I agree with all you said, except with point 4 [EDIT, now point 5] on Woman. I don't believe AI created her

The final monologue with the Woman:

Mother: "Tell me, do you remember your own mother?"

Mother: "Curious, isn't it?.... that you survived so long when others had not. As if someone had a purpose for you.... until now"

This tells me that Woman was part of the plan and part of the training of Daughter. Now, of course, this could mean she was purposefully not killed as the last survivor... and this does not change much with the story. However, when I listen to this last monologue, I get the feeling that she is a fabrication too: Can't remember her mother (how would Mother know this?), her existence is "curious" etc. Indeed, planting memories or what not, may not part of their arsenal, but her existence surely is. Also, the people she mentions (draws) are all biblical characters, leading me to think she either lies or have been fed lies...

She was part of the training, and so, logically, she had to be fostered in a way that suited this plane. It seems too big a risk having a stranger come knocking, I feel.

Another thing, which is hardly a coincidence by the filmmakers, is her resemblance to Daughter. Almost as if they came from similar genetic material...

But you are right, it could go either way. However, was she just a survivor, I find Mother's opening sentence in her final monologue misleading to this fact...and I suppose, I just like more the version, where Woman is a fabrication as well. :)

@MongoLloyd said:

Why would an AI waste their energy fiddling around with humans, an inferior being? Especially after they decimated the human race? If I were an AI, I would immediately recognize the threat that the human race is to the entire planet. If you're suggesting that a single generation of a single human could somehow have innate human nature trained out of them, LOLOLOLOL.

Indeed. But I am not talking about your movie. I am talking about this movie ;) And here it is explained that AI valued human life above all, which led it on the path of cleaning out Earth completely, to then repopulate with a new and better (optimal) version. I suspect Ai's experiment will go on forever, never truly fulfilling... rebooting, annihilating, rebooting, improving, annihilating... etc, etc. a never-ending quest. Doomed to fail in Ad infinitum.

@acontributor said:

AI can't make moral decisions. It is not a consciousness at all, no matter how intelligent it is. AI simply acts on probability to achieve a desired outcome.

I suspect Ai's experiment will go on forever, never truly fulfilling... rebooting, annihilating, rebooting, improving, annihilating... etc, etc. a never-ending quest. Doomed to fail in Ad infinitum. It is quite a horrific story.

I was wondering if AI developers supported this movie. There are plenty of people warning about the dangers of AI. Already there are AI systems which write their own code in a unique language developed by the AI itself. So the human programmers cannot really understand the code!

Moviegoers are familiar with Skynet of course. The dark, dangers of AI systems are well known to us. This movie seems to be trying to take us from that picture of AI to a somewhat more benevolent view. AI as a self sacrificing mother, a smarter system, capable of helping form a better human race. That seems to be the take away message of "Mother" telling her 'daughter' to go ahead and shoot her and raise her child on her own. We are meant to see AI in a more human light. It 'loves' us, albeit with a harsh, calculating way.

AI is great at processing very large amounts of data. So it is no surprise that Google has been buying up AI companies. Google is the biggest AI company in the world now, because Google has the most data of any company. There is no question but that AI is very powerful and may benefit us. But I think the dangers are very real, and we cannot foresee them all well enough to prevent them. I don't like the idea of AI having strategic decision making functions, as in Skynet.

@HAL 9010' said:

The final monologue with the Woman:

Mother: "Tell me, do you remember your own mother?"

Mother: "Curious, isn't it?.... that you survived so long when others had not. As if someone had a purpose for you.... until now"

This tells me that Woman was part of the plan and part of the training of Daughter. Now, of course, this could mean she was purposefully not killed as the last survivor... and this does not change much with the story. However, when I listen to this last monologue, I get the feeling that she is a fabrication too: Can't remember her mother (how would Mother know this?), her existence is "curious" etc. Indeed, planting memories or what not, may not part of their arsenal, but her existence surely is. Also, the people she mentions (draws) are all biblical characters, leading me to think she either lies or have been fed lies...

IIRC Woman says that she was orphaned and that another family brought her up. Now that's not to say she couldn't have been planted as a baby to that family by AI - that would make more sense because she had specific experiences and drawings of people from the mines.

Mother knew about Woman and her situation, including that question if she knew her own mother, because she was listening to Woman's conversation with Daughter.

Woman did lie to Daughter about the people in the mines being alive but again, in the confines of the story it would be strange that Woman would have these memories implanted.

She was part of the training, and so, logically, she had to be fostered in a way that suited this plane. It seems too big a risk having a stranger come knocking, I feel.

I think it was a risk Mother/AI had to take in order to achieve her goal of seeing if Daughter was ready. Mother was willing to terminate each iteration of Daughter at an early age, so why not also at this age?

Another thing, which is hardly a coincidence by the filmmakers, is her resemblance to Daughter. Almost as if they came from similar genetic material...

Yes this is also what threw me. I was half expecting the reveal at the end to be Woman was one version of an aborted Daughter (maybe she was?!). But that would make Woman at most 38 - not impossible I guess, Hilary Swank didn't look that old.

But you are right, it could go either way. However, was she just a survivor, I find Mother's opening sentence in her final monologue misleading to this fact...and I suppose, I just like more the version, where Woman is a fabrication as well. :)

I still believe Mother/AI just allowed her to live up until this point but I admit you have made me think more and it could go either way :)

"5. To properly educate her, AI creates a Woman to come knocking on the door forcing human interactions, learning human inabilities, human challenges, etc. And ultimately ingraining a sense of motherhood and connection to the cause of repopulating Earth."

The whole problem lies in this. Its a corny writing if its true. This says that the AI first raised the woman from infancy and sometime when she was young, placed her in some mine and asked to appear after probably 18 years with a gunshot wound and should perform an act which should look absolutely genuine, even shoot the Mother but not the CPU on her chest, take chance that she may die in the airlock if the daughter doesn't choose to save her etc.

Kind of lame.

@The_Foxcatcher said:

"5. To properly educate her, AI creates a Woman to come knocking on the door forcing human interactions, learning human inabilities, human challenges, etc. And ultimately ingraining a sense of motherhood and connection to the cause of repopulating Earth."

The whole problem lies in this. Its a corny writing if its true. This says that the AI first raised the woman from infancy and sometime when she was young, placed her in some mine and asked to appear after probably 18 years with a gunshot wound and should perform an act which should look absolutely genuine, even shoot the Mother but not the CPU on her chest, take chance that she may die in the airlock if the daughter doesn't choose to save her etc.

Kind of lame.

We do not know if "shoot the CPU" in its chest is a real thing. It certainly was no risk, as it specifically explains. Also, in the case the daughter does not choose to save her in the airlock, the daughter fails the test...

Remember the final monologue (between Mother and Woman) is this:

Mother: "Tell me, do you remember your own mother?" Mother: "Curious, isn't it?.... that you survived so long when others had not. As if someone had a purpose for you.... until now"

I see two possibilities:

1: AI realizes it needs human contact in its test to create the perfect Mother. It creates a person (we know it can increase growth/biological development of babies) and implant memories in her, and keep her at bay by the beach. Providing her with minimal survival stuff, a dog for company and when the timing is right, make her "seek refuge" and have it play out.

This has merits for the following reasons:

• She looks eerily similar to Daughter - hardly a coincidence by the scriptwriters. Almost as though they share genetic material (perhaps a failed daughter, with erased memory)

• Woman mentions only names from bible stories, and we see she holds a self-made crucifix, meaning she is of bible believe (why did the movie want to show this?). This leads me to think she is lying about the other humans, or have been fed lies.

• Woman is gifted at drawing. Daughter is gifted at Origami... are the scriptwriters hinting that "Daughters" have creative abilities? They make a point out of both these abilities. It is, in fact, their final communication.

• Ending dialogue says she can't remember her mother (how would Mother know this? and why to emphasize this in the last spoken line of the movie).

or

2: As AI hunts and kills all humans, it makes sure one survives, just in case.

She was part of the training, and so, logically, she had to be fostered in a way that suited this plane. It seems too big a risk having a stranger come knocking, I feel.

IDK, I like the first one better. It just seems more ingenious and sinister. I think there hints supporting a bigger connection. Besides, was she just a survivor, I find Mother's opening sentence in her final monologue misleading to this fact...and I suppose, I just like more the version, where Woman is a fabrication as well. :)

@HAL 9010' said:

• Ending dialogue says she can't remember her mother (how would Mother know this? and why to emphasize this in the last spoken line of the movie).

I mentioned before Mother was listening to Woman's conversations with Daughter, so she would know she was a orphan. But I get this does give an implication that maybe she was born by AI.

2: As AI hunts and kills all humans, it makes sure one survives, just in case

I don't think it's just in case, I think AI always knew it needed a survivor...hence the line "As if someone had a purpose for you".

It seems too big a risk having a stranger come knocking, I feel.

What do you think the risk was? If its a real life test, surely there's always that risk?

But your points on Woman being created by AI definitely has me swaying :)

Maybe it was a mix of both possibilities?? Woman was an iteration of Daughter and left as an infant with a "real" family and grew up in the mines. That's how AI knew not to kill her and it would explain her similarities to Daughter as well as her real life experiences (while doing away with the "implanted" memories, as I don't believe that was the case)

@cpheonix said:

What do you think the risk was? If its a real life test, surely there's always that risk?

If a stranger, AI has no say in how or what kind of person she would be. Is she a maniac, is she whatever... for the purpose of the test, AI needed a certain profile. I do not know which exactly, but I do know it needed something it could not provide itself. And therefore, logically, I think, AI would have to mold Woman to its liking or to fit its aim. Was the woman a sort of random survivor, there are too many unknowns, I feel. Anyway, this is what I mean by "risk". Of course, there is a way to mold a survivor as well, but all things considered... a replica gives a higher degree of control.

Yes, I read your answer above that Mother heard her say she was an orphan. But an orphan with a mother - she said, others raised her, no? Anyway, this is beside my point. My point is why would the scriptwriters have this mention in the final sentence of the movie? And in a sentence that goes on saying Woman existed for a planned purpose... there must be a deeper meaning by mentioning this, I speculate :)

You mix works too (and I like it). However, one of my points above is: Woman mentions only names from bible stories, and we see she holds a self-made crucifix, meaning she is of bible believe (why did the movie want to show this?). This leads me to think she is lying about the other humans, or have been fed lies.... there is something fishy about her "stories".

Also, just to throw it in: The story opens by saying the extinction event had occurred. And that there were 000 humans.... even the Mother Android did not exist before the opening crawl.

@HAL 9010' said:

If a stranger, AI has no say in how or what kind of person she would be. Is she a maniac, is she whatever... for the purpose of the test, AI needed a certain profile. I do not know which exactly, but I do know it needed something it could not provide itself. And therefore, logically, I think, AI would have to mold Woman to its liking or to fit its aim. Was the woman a sort of random survivor, there are too many unknowns, I feel. Anyway, this is what I mean by "risk". Of course, there is a way to mold a survivor as well, but all things considered... a replica gives a higher degree of control.

But what you describe isn't the test Mother wanted. She wanted a random person who was a blank slate to Daughter so it would've defeated her purpose if this person was already predetermined by her. I think it was briefly touched on with the moral argument about donating organs to random strangers.

Yes, I read your answer above that Mother heard her say she was an orphan. But an orphan with a mother - she said, others raised her, no? Anyway, this is beside my point. My point is why would the scriptwriters have this mention in the final sentence of the movie? And in a sentence that goes on saying Woman existed for a planned purpose... there must be a deeper meaning by mentioning this, I speculate :)

My first thought when AI said to Woman if she remembers her mother was that it was a rhetorical question because she knew Woman wouldn't be able to understand that a mother would do anything for their daughter (can't remember what Woman said before this). But you're right, there's likely a deeper meaning :)

You mix works too (and I like it). However, one of my points above is: Woman mentions only names from bible stories, and we see she holds a self-made crucifix, meaning she is of bible believe (why did the movie want to show this?). This leads me to think she is lying about the other humans, or have been fed lies.... there is something fishy about her "stories".

I can't remember the crucifix and the names didn't stand out to me, but I didn't feel that it was significant (at the time). Maybe it was to show humanity still had faith? I can't imagine religion would just go away. And why would she lie about other people, what would be the purpose for that?? Once she got caught out at the end by Daughter there was no need to continue the lie, if that was the case. Also her drawings were very detailed, she must've had real people to draw.

Also, just to throw it in: The story opens by saying the extinction event had occurred. And that there were 000 humans.... even the Mother Android did not exist before the opening crawl.

Good point. However, was that statement a matter of fact for the viewer, or a log from AI? If the latter, then AI didn't know humans survived during the extinction event...

@cpheonix said:

But what you describe isn't the test Mother wanted.

Mother wanted human interaction. Mother wanted a relatable human. Mother didn't want a complete lunatic or a cracra. Picking one of random, risk this. But I stated my point of view on that. All things considered, it must be riskier.

I can't remember the crucifix and the names didn't stand out to me, but I didn't feel that it was significant (at the time). Maybe it was to show humanity still had faith? I can't imagine religion would just go away. And why would she lie about other people, what would be the purpose for that?? Once she got caught out at the end by Daughter there was no need to continue the lie, if that was the case. Also her drawings were very detailed, she must've had real people to draw.

The names Woman mention comes from the same Bible story. It was not merely names from the bible, it was from the same bible tale. Like she just read a story and then used this as her "friends"... something fishy about that. The camera focuses twice, at least, on her crucifix (made from cotton, it seemed), which leads me to think it has significance. I do not believe it did this to show human still have faith (not really relevant here). It did this to show some deeper meaning in light of the story being told... when she mentions people who happen to have names from the same bible tale.. and we see she holds a crucifix tight in her hand... well, as I said, it is fishy. I think it is filmed/told like this to show us she is making stuff up.

The characters she is drawing could be from past memories (fake or real), but it could also be from photos or even some old tv shows. She apparently had seen Johhny Carson before.

Remember how Daughter did origami of a bunch of stuff she had never experienced? Woman's drawing skills were of people she had never met. Also, when Daughter leaves Woman, she left an Origami dog behind. At the container home, It was the first time Daughter had ever experienced a dog. Woman let her keep that drawing at the bunker home... it was the first time Woman had ever experienced a human???... Their skills are connected.

Btw, when she sees Johnny Carson on the "ipad" she says she saw it " a long time ago" and her face has a bit of disgust about it. Now, did she see it on TV before all the shit went down (I find this unlikely as we seem to be quite far into the future, even that this was my first interpretation)? Or does she remember seeing this, because she too used to be a Daughter? Or because she used to have access to same information as Daughters? I am stretching a bit om this one, but in our conversation, I begin to wonder if there is something in that too...

@HAL 9010' said:

The names Woman mention comes from the same Bible story. It was not merely names from the bible, it was from the same bible tale. Like she just read a story and then used this as her "friends"... something fishy about that. The camera focuses twice, at least, on her crucifix (made from cotton, it seemed), which leads me to think it has significance. I do not believe it did this to show human still have faith (not really relevant here). It did this to show some deeper meaning in light of the story being told... when she mentions people who happen to have names from the same bible tale.. and we see she holds a crucifix tight in her hand... well, as I said, it is fishy. I think it is filmed/told like this to show us she is making stuff up.

Do you know what bible tale? That does sound too much of a coincidence.

The characters she is drawing could be from past memories (fake or real), but it could also be from photos or even some old tv shows. She apparently had seen Johhny Carson before.

That's true, it would be interesting if the drawings were of "celebrities" seen in old clips that Daughter was watching (Steve Martin being one of them IIRC). I just can't believe that Woman was created by AI/Mother, brought up by her etc. and then to be kept at the beach until the time was right...all while Woman is completely unaware. I know you mentioned implanted memories but the film never really explored that so I find it difficult to make that leap. If there was a scene which showed Mother wiping /replacing a day of Daughter's memory or something like that, then yes, I'd more than likely agree with you!

Remember how Daughter did origami of a bunch of stuff she had never experienced? Woman's drawing skills were of people she had never met. Also, when Daughter leaves Woman, she left an Origami dog behind. At the container home, It was the first time Daughter had ever experienced a dog. Woman let her keep that drawing at the bunker home... it was the first time Woman had ever experienced a human???... Their skills are connected.

Maybe their skills are connected but Daughter left Woman an origami dog because Woman had one. Woman let Daughter keep the picture of the young guy because Woman knew Daughter was infatuated with the image of him.

Btw, when she sees Johnny Carson on the "ipad" she says she saw it " a long time ago" and her face has a bit of disgust about it. Now, did she see it on TV before all the shit went down (I find this unlikely as we seem to be quite far into the future, even that this was my first interpretation)? Or does she remember seeing this, because she too used to be a Daughter? Or because she used to have access to same information as Daughters? I am stretching a bit om this one, but in our conversation, I begin to wonder if there is something in that too...

So you raise another great point and that's actually something to think about because you are right, how could Woman have seen this? I mentioned Woman was raised as an orphan in the mines (I believe that's what she said, her parents were killed at birth or something like that) and presumably there was no TV, no power etc in the aftermath of the extinction event. Maybe it's a flaw in the writing, or maybe indeed she is a version of Daughter and just can't remember...