Discuss Blade Runner 2049
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Joi SPOILERS.
posted by OddRobSTAFFMOD on October 10, 2017 at 2:50 AM
Do you guys think Joi really cared and developed feelings for K? Or was it part of the programing that allowed her to pick up on things that he wanted to hear? For example at the end when he sees the giant version of her and she calls him Joe and you see the writing on the bottom stating that Joi will tell you what you want to hear. It seemed like he realized that she was just a program and was doing things/saying things she knew he wanted.
Or I guess you can look at it that a piece of her still remains in other versions. I would like to think that she really developed feelings past her programing. Even to the fact that she would risk being completely deleted just so the company couldnt track/review Ks conversations with her. What do you guys think?
Reply by northcoast
on October 10, 2017 at 4:19 AM
Good question, OddRob, and tough to answer.
On the one hand, we can take a page from "2001", where Keir Dullea's character says of HAL, "Well, he seems like he has real emotions; of course he's programmed that way to make it easier for us to talk to him." (close paraphrase).
So, as you say, OddRob, perhaps Joi's programming is just especially well-tailored to K's emotional needs in order to make it seem she's real.
On the other hand, right before Luv "kills" her (Luv kills Joi-- hmmmm . . . makes you think, doesn't it?), there appears to be a genuine mix of fear for herself (Joi) and a desperate concern on the part of Joi for K, just before Joi is snuffed out.
So maybe we are meant to think Joi did develop true feelings?
This is one of the elements of the Blade Runner 2049 story that will be debated for years to come.
Reply by OddRob
on October 10, 2017 at 5:04 AM
Yeah their relationship is played as a very convincing bio/digital relationship with a tragic end. I dont know whats more painful, when Luv smashes Joi and she yells 'I love y' or when K sees the Joi advert and he realizes that she was just fulfilling her programming. What really brought the point home is when she says you look like 'a good Joe'...ugh the feels man! But also the part where she says "I love you" K says "You dont have to say that" and she replies "I know." also brings a point up for the actual feelings/not programing in her.
But that is what drives him to go against his own programming actually. He decided to save Deckard instead of killing him. One thing is for sure, people are going to fall in love with Ana de Armas after this. Both my wife and I think she is probably one of the best looking actresses we have ever seen. And is actually really great in this role. Hope we get to see more of her in the future.
I dont know, the whole film depressed me. I enjoyed it greatly but man...the feelings. Made me almost as sad as Lala Land.
Reply by OddRob
on October 12, 2017 at 11:20 PM
Joi bump! Armas
Reply by countzero99
on October 31, 2017 at 3:57 PM
That is probably my favorite aspect of the movie. I haven't found an answer to those questions for myself, yet. Every time Joi seems to show genuine affection can just be explained by really good programming. In fact you can get really meta with this. The actress who plays her tries to convince us that the feelings are real, but we know 100% that she is faking it, because she is just acting.
Even her willingness to risk being deleted can be interpreted both ways. She could just take "say what he wants to hear" to the extreme. Why should a program that is basically just a really good chat bot care if it gets deleted?
That said I just love the idea of a sentient AI that develops real emotions too much to dismiss her feelings being real.
Reply by OddRob
on October 31, 2017 at 11:41 PM
I've read some more articles on this and I still havent found an answer. Joi believes she is more. She loves the emanator. She feels pleasure seeing raindrops on her digital skin. There is real wonder on her face when she looks out the window of K’s car, seeing the city and the sky for the first time, a response that isn’t for K’s benefit. Hiring Mariette so she can be intimate with K is her idea. “I want to be real for you,” she tells him. He responds: “You are real for me.” And she risks everything for K when she asks him to delete her from his apartment console so no one can use her memories to find him. She will only exist on the emanator, and if something happens to it, she will be gone. “Yes, like a real girl,” she responds. Joi’s death is a kind of Rorschach for the audience, testing whether we respond as if she’s a being with feelings, whether we empathize, grieve. If Joi perceives that she is “a real girl,” that she has a self, that she loves K, if her suffering and her wonder and her love feel real to her, then she is a real being with consciousness, as real as a replicant or a human.
Joi calls K DNA “the alphabet of you.” Basically programing, our genes and DNA are like code in a computer program or in this case an A.I. Why cant she be real and her feelings be genuine? That bridge scene can be read in two ways. K realizes his Joi was just a program A.I. that told him what he wanted. Or he realizes that his Joi was something special and he can never get her back...like a real girl. At the end it helps K break free from his own programing. He decides to longer be used. Used by the LAPD or the rebellion. He picks a side, his side and follows it path to the end...like a real boy.
Reply by Renovatio
on November 1, 2017 at 5:08 AM
Great thread...
Joi is just an app... Even K realises, later in the movie, how empty it was to rely on it as a surrogate for real human connection...
K has real emotions and internal life since being a replicant he is basically a bio-engineered human... When we say K overcomes his programming , we mean he overcomes the brainwashing and ideological and emotional constraints that keep him repressed... So he becomes more in tune with his genetic "code", which was repressed by the programming of his environment... On the other hand, Joi is her programming, she never deviates from or struggles with her code... It's only the consequences of that code which are unforsean as K is put in these different situations...
Joi is just an app, which is easy for us to anthropomorphise, to give human traits, as she comes in the form of the beautiful and expressive Ana De Armas... Joi is no more human than the "Wilson" ball from Tom Hanks' Castaway movie...
I think the highly underrated Robot & Frank from a few years ago deals with this topic better, as the way this concept is dealt with in that movie makes it clear that perceiving Joi as having love is within the minds of K and the audience and not a trait inherent in the Joi app... It's subtle, but meaningful as it shows how deep our human capacity for empathy runs...
Reply by Renovatio
on November 1, 2017 at 5:19 AM
[Ending SPOILERS]
@OddRob
Re: The bridge scene...
Yes, this scene is open to interpretation... i saw it as K, upon realising the cyber nature of his relationship with Joi, decides that instead of joining the rebellion and being another pawn to be controlled, he decides to reunite Dekard with his daughter and thus, vicariously through them be part of a real human connection for once in his life... that is what he risks his life for and it gives his death more meaning, than risking his life for the duty of serving the LAPD or the rebellion...
It's the only way he knows how to assert his humanity, as joining the rebellion would still trap him in the identity of being a replicant... Of being less than human...
Reply by OddRob
on November 2, 2017 at 1:20 AM
One thing that I still dont get is why would Joi continue to push K into thinking that he is 'special' and a 'real boy' knowing what would happen to him. I mean if she is a program shouldnt her top priority be to insure the safety/happiness of her user? If K was the child he would be hunted down relentlessly and probably killed or captured. Not to mention if anything happened to K she would probably just be deleted or reset to a base model.
Joi also shows jealousy/insecurity when dealing with Mariette. Something that dosent seem to be programed into her. From that aspect I get a self aware/evolving A.I. vibe. But I guess ultimately its left up to the audience to decide if Joi was real. She was real enough for K.
Reply by tmdb15054870
on November 2, 2017 at 6:46 PM
When I saw Joi I thought there's no way this director is entertaining such a simple concept, but by the end I realized that rather than build up to a hologram developing feelings, he played it in reverse by suggesting that very idea at the start of the film but then ultimately reducing Joi down to a giant billboard. I believe Joi's purpose is to entice the audience into believing she cares in the same way she's meant to entice a customer in the movie and just when you begin to commit to that idea, she's revealed as a giant, eyeless advertisement that screams 'If you're questioning whether Joi is real, you have been seduced by her as well.' That's why that scene is her last.
Someone above said they liked the idea of an AI developing feelings, but that's been covered with Replicants. Why go there yet again with yet another AI. I believe in a much more clever way, Joi turns that theme on its head by posing the question, "When do we NOT consider something as real?". 2049 society is entertained by artificial Elvis and artificial showgirls. K watches a holographic Sinatra. Where does it stop? At what point do we say 'not everything constitutes life'. An alarm clock knows when to wake you up, is it a lifeform?
With that said, in relation to K, I think the Joi character establishes why Replicants are to be considered as true lifeforms. If you blur the line between a pleasure program and a Replicant, then you diminish what Replicants are fighting for, which is to be recognized as relevant beings. In other words, Replicants don't matter because they're no more alive than a response program. Like saying a sex doll matters because some guy's in love with it. Joi is the antithesis of Roy. Joi was 'programmed' to care whereas Roy became self-aware and genuinely developed the ability to care, establishing himself as 'human' by choosing to save Deckard. Making a clear distinction between a fully artificial being and a Replicant allows replicants to be perceived as more real.
Lastly, I believe Joi and Mariette do NOT talk to each other as we're lead to believe. When Mariette enters K's apartment she says "I didn't think you liked me". If Joi set up this surprise interlude, why is Mariette referring to K? Watch the morning after scene with the perspective of Mariette talking to K and K kicking out Mariette - through Joi. Mariette's frustration apparent at K's inability to realize who matters, especially considering her revolutionary cause, but, like a good hooker, she diligently maintains his fantasy by talking at Joi, not to her. When she says "That's a special girl you have there", she's acknowledging K's Harvey the rabbit, not Joi's desire to please K. She understands K's really pleasing himself. The great irony being that the character who looks like a hooker, Mariette, actually has a purpose, whereas the character K falls for, Joi, is the real hooker. I love that. I think so many people are caught up in the Joi developing feelings thing that they're missing out on how much better than that it actually is.
Reply by tmdb15054870
on November 2, 2017 at 7:47 PM
Yes. They took the unicorn and ran full speed with it.
Reply by OddRob
on November 2, 2017 at 11:44 PM
Well they didnt really make $75 million. The general rule is that a big studio film usually adds half its budget on marketing. So that would be 75 million for this film. So in total the studio spent around 225 million on BR. So the studio basically broke even so far with the cinema run. Course that dosent count merchandise.
Reply by OddRob
on November 3, 2017 at 11:19 PM
Yes, but not alot of TV ads. But Im sure they advertised internationally as well. You dont spend $150 million on a production and dont run ads. Not to mention the press they had to do. Even if they spent less on the ads they are still in the negative since not all that is profit. It has to be split with cinemas and other companies as well.