Discuss Avengers: Endgame
Discuss → Movies → Avengers: Endgame → General
cap and peggy. what happened? (spoilers)
posted by MrsBuckyBarnesSTAFFMOD on April 28, 2019 at 11:18 AM
i would like to get a sense of the general consensus regarding what happened to cap and peggy after cap put the stones back?
(because frankly i can't make sense of it)
a) he was peggy's husband all along, was also the father of her children and she hid it from him?
b) cap went back in time, met with peggy, she broke up with the man she fell for at the end of agent carter?
c) when cap went back in time there was an alternate time line created (is loki in an alternate time line now, where he has the tesseract?) where peggy did not move on and they got married?
d) something else?
would cap have been in a position to stop bucky from becoming the winter solder?
Reply by rvcanuck
on April 28, 2019 at 6:02 PM
Since he only seems to be in his 80s in that final scene, it's likely that he stayed with Peggy in 1970. Going back to 1945 would have made him over 100. In 1970, Peggy would only have been in her early 50s so it's not a stretch. Plus, that would mean she had already married and likely divorced the other guy and had children without forming any paradoxes.
Reply by jordan77600
on April 28, 2019 at 7:14 PM
Also a thing that i didn't understand is captain america aging, wasn't the super soldier serum supposed to make him age slower ?
Reply by Innovator
on April 28, 2019 at 7:16 PM
Only in the comics. Chris Evans obviously aged during his tenure with Marvel.
As for my vote, I'll go with the obvious time travel rule they stated very clearly in the movie several times: c) then cap went back in time there was an alternate time line created (is loki in an alternate time line now, where he has the tesseract?) where peggy did not move on and they got married? And yes, Loki is in an alternate time line as well.
As for the argument that's forthcoming (because it always comes up), but what about the end where he just showed up, doesn't this mean he was in the main mcu timeline? No it doesn't. Captain America had a GPS that had the coordinates of the main MCU timeline with him, along with the ability to travel through time. He could have gotten back anytime he wanted. He just opted to not come back until after Peggy died and he was old already. He only returned so his friends wouldn't worry about him, and so he can pass on his mantle to Falcon.
Reply by jordan77600
on April 28, 2019 at 7:24 PM
Is there some way that loki can go to the actual timeline ?
Reply by Innovator
on April 28, 2019 at 7:25 PM
Yes. I'm sure there is. We may see him do it during his upcoming Loki series on Disney +.
Reply by jordan77600
on April 28, 2019 at 7:30 PM
I think they will make him join the guardians with thor
Reply by autoexec.batman
on April 28, 2019 at 9:37 PM
With Marvel in the comics, the rule has always been that traveling to the past cannot change the present because any change you make only results in the creation of a new parallel universe rather than changing the timeline of the universe you live in, no matter what you do in the past, when you return to (your) present, the timeline is always unchanged. The logical reason given for why it works this way is exactly the explanation that Bruce gives in 'Endgame', namely that if it was possible to change your own past, then it would likely result in a timeline where you never went back in time at all, resulting in a paradox.
They have played with this in 1,000 different stories. I remember one Fantastic Four story where Sue Storm dies and Reed Richards goes back in time to save her, he knows that there is nothing he can do to bring his Sue back, but he takes comfort in the fact that as a result of his actions, he created a new parallel universe where Sue is still alive. Of course, the 'twist' in this story (surprising to no one that understands how time travel works in Marvel comics) was that the reality where Sue never died was our own reality, and the reality where Sue died was an alternate reality, so 'our' Sue has never died, the one we've been reading about since 1961, never died.
Reply by MrsBuckyBarnes
on April 29, 2019 at 4:10 AM
i get the impression from the way you have worded this that you think i'm stupid for not having as full an understanding as you do as to what happened, but the fact is that the time travel rule was not "stated very clearly" at all. i have watched this film twice so far, and every time the characters discuss time travel it is rushed and made incoherent by the need to add in jokes and time travel film references, which is why there is so much confusion online. i think my fondness for this film will grow even stronger over time, but that will not diminish my awareness that the script was poor at times, and the explanation of time travel and its implications was just one example.
thanks for replying though.
Reply by MrsBuckyBarnes
on April 29, 2019 at 4:14 AM
i'm looking forward to several of the disney+ series coming up, particularly wandavision and bucky and falcon.
Reply by Innovator
on April 29, 2019 at 4:26 AM
I don't think you're stupid, just not familiar with this type of time travel rules. Maybe it was just more clear to me as I'm very familiar with how it works in Marvel comics as well as the Many Worlds Theory. I've also worked with Amber Diceless RPG creator, Erick Wujcik , on a timetravel RPG with very similar rules for time travel.
Reply by MrsBuckyBarnes
on April 29, 2019 at 4:41 AM
I don't think you're stupid, just not familiar with this type of time travel rules> quote here
well that's a relief :)
no, i'm not familiar with that type of time travel but i like the idea of it, and it seems more elegant than say, time travel as described in back to the future.
Reply by simian_ninja
on April 29, 2019 at 5:07 AM
Ahhh, I was so happy that Captain America got his happy ending. Like, literally - him using Thor's hammer and his happy ending.
I really loved that.
Reply by gnoldaeh
on April 29, 2019 at 7:40 AM
I (agree) agree sort of, but it did not rule out the possibility MrsBuckyBarnes marked as a) namely "he was Peggy's husband all along, was also the father of her children and she hid it from him." I mean the timeline we have been following in the MCU could be (and imo very possibly IS) the altered timeline where Steve already went back in time and grew old with Peggy. So there has to be an "original timeline" where Peggy and Steve didn't meet again until Cap was defrosted in the 2010s, but that original timeline is not the original timeline of the MCU. Much like in the Fantastic Four storyline mentioned by autoexec.batman above.
Reply by Joe79
on April 29, 2019 at 8:13 AM
Strictly speaking the only person who talks about creating alternate realities (timelines) is the Ancient one - and only in the very specific event of an infinity stone being removed or moved in the timeline (since they are responsible for the flow of time somehow).
[Sidebar - this explanation from the ancient one casts doubt on whether Thanos really destroyed the stones at all - time still flowed...)
Stepping on a bug, meeting your dad etc etc wouldn't make a difference. This is why they are specifically returning the stones (the hammer is a special case).
If we assume this the rule then it is perfectly possible for Cap to go back to 1940-something resume his relationship with Peggy under an assumed identity whlist the younger him is in the ice, and live a normal life. He may well be 110+ years old when he returns - same timeline since he is not an infinity stone.
(Alternatively we are now in that splinter universe created when Cap stayed in the past)
Reply by Innovator
on April 29, 2019 at 1:44 PM
She was actually saying that removal of the timestone would help Banner's future, but cause her current time to branch off where it would be fucked to the the Dark Dimension (hence the black line) because they won't have it to stop Dormammu. Banner also stated that changing the past will not change their timeline, as time does not work like it does in Back to the Future, Hot Tub Time Machine, etc.